The trouble with history is that it goes so far back,it's hard to get into
recall mode. It's all so long ago as they say. I tend to think of things farther back than the day we first met. We were both independently in the same place at the same time on a number of occasions in our youth. In the 'hippy' daze. It's only now we've found that out. An astrologist did do our charts (all of TG) years ago and was amazed we had taken so long to get together. I hasten to add I was actually still with Gen at the time. (theoretically anyway). That comment didn't go down too well.To Chris and myself it felt perfect and logical that we went so well together and our astrological paths crossed so many times. I am a great believer in fate. We were obviously meant to pass each other by until the right moment in
time for our joint destiny. That's not a romantic statement,love does not always come with compatability on all levels. I guess we both had to develope to a certain stage before we were 'ready' to meet. As for becoming 'Chris & Cosey' instead of TG ,it was an inevitable consequence of moving on from what was becoming a suffocating situation. It's all been said so many times before. TG had served its function and as such there were differences on many levels between us all. It was a case of practising what we 'preached' if you like. We didn't suffer fools gladly and we wanted to experiment with new ideas without having to compromise our own beliefs. There seemed to be more compromising towards the end,just to keep the peace,and that's not what I would subscribe to. Breaking away gave everybody freedom,however traumatic it was at the time. The ending of dishonesty and of a false sense of self importance was a good thing. We were all great catalysts for each other while we were willing participants and I wouldn't change a thing about TG. It was the energy between us all that created it and then destroyed it . It was inevitable just by its volatile nature and the intensity of the inner passions in us all.
As 'Chris & Cosey' we were exiled before the official end of TG, but we weren't conciously bothered by that at all. We had such a vast amount of positive energy at the time,we never even really considered TG as being anything to lose,so much as something we had done on the way to where we were now. We began collating sounds a year before TG ended,more as an experiment rather than a concieved plan to become 'Chris & Cosey' and release an album. It was all an ongoing thought process with no premeditation at all. I suppose in the great recesses of our psyche we knew we would be moving away completely,although I didn't see why we couldn't assimilate grievances and rise above emotional changes.There was a period of 2 years ('79-end of 81) given over to trying but then it was also 2 years of spiritual draining. Intense visions brought me out and put everything in perspective. It had to be that way because of the deep relationships we'd built up. We're not consumed by any negative thoughts about TG or that whole period in our lives and that's no mean achievement considering what took place. Now whenever TG is mentioned in mags etc. as being the beginning of 'Industrial Music' etc. it's hard to identify with what the hell they're going on about. It's like a dream,when you see yourself doing something and think 'is that me? Did I do that?'. I know I did and I can remember it all,but the description in print does not compute with my memory of the events and the situations leading up to what TG became. In fact I can listen to TG now and enjoy it better than at the time. I can actually say it was good. People must realise, we were mischievous activists, out to make trouble and wring a few necks. We were out to enjoy ourselves and did whatever we fancied to achieve that goal. Waking people up from their
soporific banal acceptance of what life had become to represent was a statement of our anger at peoples complacency. Punk happened shortly after TG but never offered anything other than a fashionable alternative to going to the disco and getting pissed at the weekend. It was as shallow as the disco scene that already existed. That problem has come back to
haunt the music scene again. It's all money and control. It's a nasty insidious creature that gets a grip before you realise it's even there. That's what I learnt from our days with TG. I know that's a negative answer,but a truthful one. If we'd stayed with Industrial and bled TG dry we would all be better off now I suppose. But for what sacrifices along the way? Everyone I know that has done things for that motive is paying dearly for their actions now. There was such a vast amount of information buzzing around the offices of Industrial records and ideas bouncing off one another and people who came to see us aswell. It was a cesspit of information exchange and self indulgence,with electrically charged moments of inspiration. I suppose we were laying down the foundations for what we were to become,assimilating, rejecting and experimenting. It was so potent because we were all four of us occupying that space at the same moment in time. As individuals our reactions were diverse. We were not in 'unison' as such and I suppose that's what gave things that edge. There was always some underlying
conflict.The eternal question mark. Yet we had the ability to pull together this enormous sense of strength and power.
During gigs our sense of one anothers actions was acute and the very last gig was the most memorable of my life in terms of sheer determined energy and power. In such adverse conditions too. That was a test of ability to rise above the shit of the day. It's one of those moments that's impossible to describe. The only time it's fun or relevent to talk about TG is if it's with someone who knew the reality of it all. So many people have a fantasy of what it was like or a theoretical view of it's importance in the history of music. It was MORE than music/sound. That's what we learnt and took with us as C&C,that our work is more than sound. We can't divorce our work from our life. Now when people write to us it's as C&C and they may get to know about TG later on but look upon it in a different way because they've come to us from a different angle. It's refreshing when that happens. Then it's also inevitable because TG was so long ago now. A generation away. 12 years seems a long time to be making music,but so much happens along side that it's not constant recording anyway. It's actually 17 years! I think people over the years have left listening to us and come back again later. While they've been away there's been new people coming through,which is a really positive situation 'cos at the end of the day we have a new 'audience' and also the people who have been with us all along PLUS those who jump off the bus and hop on again further along the line. It works well for us. Some only know us from 'Exotika' onwards and percieve C&C as being like that. They maybe got a shock when 'CORE' came out or when they hear the new CTI album this April,but we feel a need to create all kinds of 'music' and wouldn't be content with one avenue of expression. It can't say all I have to say. I suppose that's what has kept us feeling positive about music is the fact that I never feel I have said enough or expressed what I feel to the point of satisfaction. When we get within the last 10-15 minutes of making an album I'm already writing the next one in my head. It's an infuriating habit but once the concept and feel of each project is realised I'm ready to move onto the next. Itchy feet,like time will run out if I don't start now. That's a constant thorn in my side. Time. I sit and think how I'll get into my collage work again,photography (other than promo) write some more of my book. But time and mood dictates what I can do. I have started painting again,it's a great release for me to be visual again for a non specific reason. As far as the general interest in our work goes. It's a case of 'exposure' all over again. If people don't know you're there,they can't react to you can they? And if the music press won't write about you,no one gets to know you even exist. It's all so logical but the 'promotion' side of things has become quite alien to me. I think most people feel this way sometimes. 'Good' interviews are few and far between. By that I mean ones where you feel you've asked questions of yourself that you never heard before,you've had a conversation with someone interesting instead of someone who just gave your last CD a quick spin before they came to interview you. I read interviews with bands now who are saying the same things we said 17 years ago. Does it take that long for things to get assimilated? I didn't think so. A lot of music now is repetition of what has been before with the guts taken out. A lot of bands don't even know why they are doing it,other than the illusion of money and ego. There have always been bands like that,but the difference is,they never gave any suggestion they were in it for other reasons. Now, you get pseudo-industrial, intellectual bands who don't know their arse from their elbow but give out a load of technically incorrect data to add credibility. When they get caught out,their only defence is to say it's a joke or it's 'only rock and roll'. There are more talented 'musicians' doing some of the commercial music of today than there is in the indie scene. They're certainly more honest about their intentions. Whether you like their music or not,you get what you see. I detest deceit. It's nothing like it used to be when everyone would help each other out with technical or equipment problems. We have become wiser by being used and abused I think. We are very selective about who we work with now,as are many people we know,but having said that. We don't think negatively first about any project. We give the benefit of the doubt as they say. Most people will agree going into a studio with someone is a very personal thing and actually getting something recorded is a great achievement.Personalities play a vital role, diplomacy, tact and flexabi- lity aswell. We've collaborated a lot via the mail because of distances and other committments etc. That works really well with certain techniques of 'composing' but I prefer to work in the studio with some people. The 'on the spot' decisions as to the direction of the piece at the start is vital to the overall feel or dominant mood of the track. I don't like too much control over collaborations,and I think with the use of samplers you can get what YOU want by manipulation of the sound, wereas if you were in the studio personally together,it would have to be by discussion and exchange of opinions. I love working with other people who have as much enthusiasm and ideas as ourselves. There have been collaborations which have been too one-sided (ours) in terms of everything including equipment,and they were lost opportunities. The tracks were really good,but never reached their full potential,as to what could have been. That's my opinion anyway. Now,aswell people get very possessive about their samples. Quite rightly too if they have gone to the trouble of collecting originals themselves and working on them. All the new pieces of equipment are wonderful,answers to our many prayers sometimes. We are constantly revising our shopping list,but at the end of the day,it's the sounds you generate that count. By that I mean YOUR sounds. So many people now use the presets and sample disks etc. and don't even stretch n' squeeze or phase,nothing even as simple as that. Actually I think the thought never even occurs to them that they could make the sample even more interesting. That they have a piece of equipment which has endless possibilities for the creation of sound. It's that disposable attitude again. When this sound gets too common I'll buy the next model or a new load of samples. Which brings us back to the fact that these people have the luxury of money to do this,and those of us who don't have to experiment. Which in turn gives us original sounds. So who's better off in the long run? Ha. As a couple making music..........

I think the advantage is when you get bored or things aren't happening for some reason in the studio,you can have a grope and bite away the frustration then get back to it. When others are there you don't have that self indulgence so much. Well,not quite so much. I suppose having the studio in the house also has its advantages too.We have the luxury of time,that is free. But we've always recorded in our own time. We used to hire equipment,never went into a studio to record. But back to us being 'a couple'. I never think of us as that when we are working,if anything we're very seperate people with our own ideas, that either have the same thoughts on the particular piece or step back to allow the other person freedom,as they have a definite idea . It gets pretty heated at times,there are moments of blocking and times when one or both of us has had enough. We go out for the day then. It's difficult to dissect your relationship like this. Are we different with each other in the studio than when we're out of it? Yes and no. Frustrating situations arise more often,just by way of the fact that it's not easy to describe a sound you want to hear,that hasn't been made yet. We do have communication problems like that. Laying down a vocal is sometimes a tense time. There is nothing more personal than a lyric. As we still work in an improvised way as far as the music and lyrics are concerned,finding the right tone of voice and words too,is difficult. Other times,they just melt from your lips and lay in the track as if they have always been there. That's a wonderful feeling when that happens. Any completion of a track is a great feeling. We have always been more together than apart since our relationship began. So it's alien to us now to be seperated for any length of time,even if we get two single beds in hotels it's weird,it puts a distance between us. I don't know,some people may find that suffocating but we don't live in each others pockets,we have our own minds,very much so,but we are just so intensely in sync with one another. I can't imagine a relationship worth having that demands you have to be apart for it to have a chance of survival. What's the point? Anyway everyones different. I guess the struggle we had just to be together has a lot to do with it. We value actually being with each other in a way others would just take for granted. Live every day as if it were your last. Positively. I think in a way,when we record it's our time away from each other,because I have things I assimilate and then express through the lyrics and music and Chris is the same. We are actually two seperate people in the studio when we are involved in the creation of a piece,not lovers. Maybe that's why it works and the more I think of it the more I wonder why I never realised it before. The fact that we know each others little sensitivities etc. helps because we avoid unnecessary arguments that way. We can both be very dogmatic at times and I can be an absolute shit when things aren't going well. I think Chris is one of the few people that can rise above those situations. He should be awarded a masters degree in diplomacy I think.All the things that happen,the shit people heap around you sometimes provoke fire and rage from me and a philosophical raising of the eyebrow from Chris! Especially on tour,it's such a potentially disastrous scenario,you have to rise above it. Chris is right in that respect. When things are out of your control what's the point of driving yourself crazy. The pressures of touring are tremendous. Speaking for ourselves that is. I know bands who don't give a shit about whether they even get to the airport on time,let alone to the gig. It's assumed someone else has arranged it all. Delegate ALL responsibilities. We have always felt fully responsible for the shows we do,even down to making allowances for the support band to have time for a soundcheck. The ego games bands play just never occurred to us till a promoter pointed it out to us. Privileges for the main band and utter contempt for the support. There is a happy medium people can apply,but it's all so deep rooted I think over the years,everyone expects a certain kind of treatment. At the venues,we get the person doing 'hospitality' (providing drinks warmth,food etc.) come to introduce themselves,being quite surly (aggressive) on our arrival. Then when they realise we're not pissed up big headed arseholes,they are so relieved. You hear so many bad stories about bands on the road. It's unbelievable. From bands who proport to be intelligent and have a spiritual philosophy to go along with the music,if their audiences had any idea,they'd feel so cheated. I think the fact that we are a 'couple' helps us enormously,because we have the strong relationship to hold us both together when things get really heavy. Being on tour creates all kinds of personal dramas between the tour entourage. You live in such close proximity to one another and so little sleep with long days and nights of travelling,sound checking, interviews and then gigs. You get to the 14th gig or so,to bed at 2 am to rise at 6.30am to get to the airport. You must make the flight because there is a connecting flight (only that one) and you have to play that night. You finally get to the hotel,knackered,knowing the soundcheck is in 2 hours and you haven't eaten yet. Do you eat first or sleep? You go to grab an hours sleep and find the hotel room hasn't been cleaned yet. That was the ONLY spare hour you had,it means everything to you at the time. Snap time! Or not? You don't have the energy to argue. We were lucky on most occasions like that,that we had a tour manager who was just so effecient and sensitive. They endure the same pressures as us too. You are all in the same boat at the end of the day. So you think do we want these weeks to be enjoyable or an assault course ? We have taken Nicki (our son) on tour with us aswell across America. He was very very good. He put up with a lot, but at the same time he dispersed some possibly explosive situations too. Children make life seem so simplistic. He coped with some situations better than the rest of us,made some of us look very petty at times. It was good to have him with us. When you're really 'big' I'm sure a lot of that pressure is taken away because you have someone to set up the gear and soundcheck for you etc. You're the performer. When we tour,we take our own equipment with us and set it up at the venue,soundcheck etc. I don't like anyone else to do it now. I'm so used to doing it,that way I know if there's anything wrong BEFORE the gig. I get a feel for the place, get some kind or rapport with the sound people etc. I suppose listening to myself I still view gigs as being special and not just another space to plug in,play and get out. It's because of that attitude that we decided to stop touring. The venues we were playing weren't personal enough. It wasn't the bands attitude but the people running the venues. Some of the owners weren't even into music. It was a business. That's an alien concept to me where 'art' is concerned. We would go to a great venue,people wonderful,owner great and then next day hit a real low shit heap of a place. We have played some really great places and in America some of the nicest people running some of the clubs. If they were 75% as nice as those we would maybe have carried on longer. You get to the point when you've had enough for a while.

We actually want a change from the 'gig' scene aswell. We're not really
a 'touring band'. Never were. I think our music is maybe a bit too personal sometimes. We're very careful about which tracks we do live,and that's not something I want to have to take into consideration to a great degree. As far as the equipment is concerned. As you say,we have simplified the set-up. It was a case of necessity. If we wanted to perform live we had to be able to finance the shows. One of the biggest expenses is transport. If we could both travel on one ticket each with our luggage allowance to include the gear,we could go anywhere. So that's what we did. We had a compact flightcase each built to house our instruments and effects and another for the mixer,more effects units,leads etc. We have some rythms on DAT and the rest is played live. Vocals,Guitar,Octopad,Keyboard,Tapes,Cornet,various percussion,Effects.We do everything on stage and just send 8 channels to the PA desk. 2 from Chris' mixer with sequencers DAT and keyboards,2 from guitar & zoom effects,2 for vocals and effects and 2 for Octopad drums. All that has to be done is getting the levels right on the night (they always change when bodies fill the space). The soundchecks should be simple and often are with so little to do. The main problems that arise are duff leads,earth loops and on rare occasions hopeless sound crews. I say that because on just three occasions the venue has had to dismiss the crew after 2 -4 hours of fumbling and had to get someone else in. I don't know,it's a game and a half isn't it?
We have noticed more bands getting into the compact set-up .It makes sense really. Lugging a computer around to run sequences etc. is a bit stupid when you can put it on a DAT tape. I don't know many bands that do 'live' sequences. They may say they do,but people are being mislead.At one gig the PA crew were going spare because they couldn't figure out which channel the synth was going through because when the person played it,nothing was coming out. (Until the backing tape was running). It was a dummy,the keyboard player was miming. In fact it turned out the band were miming to everything. Only the main vocals and some of the backing vocals and percussion were live. I hate that. They can't have much faith in their own ability,or enjoyment of the process of creating their music. I suppose you could get to the point were bands take their latest CD put it through the PA,set up the gear for effect and mime to the whole
album. It's probably happening right now.I think sometimes bands get wrapped up in 'performing' instead of creating their sound live. You can do both without sacrificing one for the other. There's nothing like doing live shows sometimes. Take away the safety net,it does you good.Anyway I could go on and on about the crap to do with the music scene,and we knew that existed before we started out as Industrial. That'swhat made Industrial different at the time,we were totally honest with the audience. What they saw is what they got.

Record labels...
Do you want me to dish the dirt? I can't do that,I'm not in the mood.Play It Again Sam and Mute,I can give a big hug. They are so very good. For the rest of them that owe us money....May they sink slowly in the cesspit of their own making.


Recording process....
We can't write music Daniel. I thought everybody knew that! I have a black book where I scribble ideas for structures of tracks,titles,lyrics sound source ideas etc. Then we work from that or just turn on the gear and something emerges immediately. I think I would find premeditated composing of music just too boring. The excitement of not knowing what will present itself is what keeps my interest and fascination in music so keen. For us,it's the production and structuring of the sounds that are the theory side of recording really. We will spend hours,days on that side of the process. Working out counter rythms,unconventional chord structures,adjusting samples,editing sounds etc. It's not unusual for us to spend 2 weeks on one track. (and that's without the mixing and collecting of sounds prior to recording). We usually begin with a rough idea of the 'feel' of the whole album. Then we work within that field. It can start with a rythm,bassline or an atmospheric sound. We build on that or sometimes get about 6 tracks laid down,scrap 5 of them and start again just with a sequence we like that triggered thoughts for a totally different rythm etc. When that happens, we save the 'rejected' tracks for another piece at a later date.Recycled. It's all intuitive. Working with other people.....We love collaborations but working with others is so very hard as I've said before. You can waste a lot of energy and it can very frustrating. It's also wonderful too. We do select very carefully who we work with now,but really like the challenge and change is very good for everyone I think. We're also pro-compilations too just for the freedom to do what the hell we want. There's no job description.


ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS FOR ND. January 25th 1994

Current projects.

We're right in the middle of recording the second CTI/Library of Sound CD 'CHRONOMANIC'. The concept for it comes from when we recorded on the eve of The Feast of Balfigore' for 'Pagan Tango'. We decided to record a track for a specific time, Ritual , or event throughout the year. So it's been an ongoing project over the full year. A very enlightening experience in many ways. We've never worked to any kind of strict schedule before and once we had selected the particluar dates we had also committed ourselves and had to stick to it. It was a good feeling . Inbetween this we completed the TIME TO TELL text and photos etc. and delivered all with artwork ready for release in July. No go then,so we went for september and our distributors were too heavily committed,so we have had to settle for final release April this year. It will be a limited edition of 2000 with 40 page booklet,26 B/W postcards with digitally re-mastered CD. I am doing extra special signed copies which will come with a postcard size original encaustic painting my myself.


After 'Chronomanic' comes a C&C album which we haven't decided on yet whether it will be one of three things. A completely new one/a compilation from live shows or re-recorded tracks done in totally different styles from the original versions. Then we want to get a Live video released too. These will all be on the CTI label. We have 'Dancing Ghosts' coming out on a compilation on PI Records up in Scotland. That has different artists from the past,present and future.


Video...I'm constantly amazed at some videos,like Peter Gabriel's. All those wonderful effects,I'd love to get my hands on the equipment they use,but that needs BIG money to get that. I've always said it's a shame that video needed such huge funds to really get what you want. We have a very limited set up and no finances or easy access to sophisticated gear that will do what we visualise in our heads. So we have to go around the houses and try and get the nearest thing to what we know would be the best. It's all moving so quickly now with computer graphics etc. I love it. Some of the best I've seen was from a Japanese artist who used images of sea animals,jelly fish and such. Then he manipulated it all on computer and the results were just so beautiful. That's what I'd love to get into for video work,anything less would not fulfill me enough I think. Having said that I may have to just get on and do what I can. We can start with the live C&C video. That's straight forward docummentation really. Editing and compiling the best and most interesting pieces from hours of tape. That'll take ages but we've been meaning to do it for so long now. We prefer to work on abstract images for video as apposed to 'Music Videos' or what they have come to mean generally speaking. I think the 'promo' videos are really boring,I prefer the more surreal,arty type music video. At least some creative thought has gone into it .


Inspiration to carry on......I've never really thought of 'stopping' doing what I do because that's like saying I think I'll become someone else now. I have always done things with my life,I don't know any other way to be. I think inspiration plays a part in any creative action though, and I do need that initial flash to start the ball rolling. It has always seemed to happen for me,maybe not at the right time,but then I can arrange my time to fit my activities really. I'm lucky I haven't needed to take a 'day job' for some time now.